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Hall studied business education at Murray State University. After graduating, she married her high school sweetheart who also attended Murray State, Jim Hall, and they both assumed positions at their alma mater. In between positions, Jane Hall worked for a year at Calloway County High School where she taught bookkeeping.
After starting a family and losing Jim to a premature death, she went back to teaching at Murray State full-time in the accounting department.
Jane Hall has always said Murray State was there for her family when they needed it the most. Since then, she has never wavered with her passion for teaching, whether it be for accounting, or teaching or eight grandchildren how to live life with a kind heart.
Jane Hall began teaching in the 1970s, and many things have changed since then. Most notably, the amount of dependency we have for technology. For Jane in the accounting department, that technology was in the form of calculators.
“You never used a calculator,” she said. “And the problem you had with it, it’s not that you didn’t want them to use a calculator, but you wanted them to develop their math skills.”
When Jane Hall began teaching, computers were rarely used in the classroom, and most arithmetic was done by hand, even lengthier accounting problems that students today might find complicated. She said if she were still teaching today, that she would not allow her students to use calculators.
However, she notes there is a caveat to that situation. She understands that not all students are meant to be math students, and that all students learn differently.
“You almost need to do two types of tests,” she said. “You need to do one where they take a test, and you need to do one on an individual basis if you really want to know how they understand accounting.”
Hall said there is a difference between students being able to understand and apply concepts, and just memorized math equations.
“You get away from their mathematical skills to their concepts,” she said. “There could be two different situations there.”
One thing that Hall stressed importance on is that all students learn differently.
“Some kids can conceptually think ahead if you’re having them look at some numbers on a budget, and thinking about creating a budget," she said. "Some people can conceptually create that and do it easily in their minds because they departmentalize. Some just can’t do that. Some just don’t have the ability."
She said those are the students that need the most attention, and it is hard making a test that can accommodate to everyone’s needs. Jane Hall said that most types of tests only focus on one type of student, even though they all learn at their own pace. However, she says making tests to suit everyone is difficult. “But there is no good way to make a good test,” she said. “It is really hard.” One of the hardest parts about testing for students is the anxiety and nervousness surrounding a test.
Jane Hall said most kids are scared of standardized testing.
“They are petrified because they know they are not conceptually good,” she said. “They know that. I mean they just know it. And then there are those who will go beyond because they don’t have that much skill, but they want to use it and to go further."
She said she tried to not cause any more panicking than necessary on test day by not walking around the classroom during a test. She tried her best not to embarrass any student, and wanted them to feel welcome in her classroom. For accounting majors, standardized testing was somewhat usual.
However, Jane Hall said standardized testing was a stickier subject for her, because she believes that teachers should only test based off of what their ability of teaching is.
“I would not like standardized testing,” she said. “Because you need to test them on what you taught them and what you gave them.”
Original Format
The audio file to this oral history interview can be accessed at this link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15AAnIbead1woRWwervLxANXC8AGl8WDK/view?usp=sharing
Transcript:
Paige: You were in the school system for very long, so how do you think it changed from when you started teaching to when you ended teaching.
Jane: Well I started at the high school level, but there is a difference in the high school level, that’s actually where I did my student teaching, then I taught out there again. There is a difference at which level you would say. I think… what is the question again.
Paige: How did the school system change from when you started teaching to when you retired.
Jane: Now you have computers. When I first started, you didn’t have computers, you know what I mean. You didn’t use your… calculator. You couldn’t use calculators that was a big difference. You never used a calculator. And, I see, and the problem you had with it, it’s not that you didn’t want them to use a calculator, but you wanted them to develop their math skills. And the second, is that sometimes people know how to program now, and can transfer them to other ones and the kids can be getting the answers from somebody else.
Paige: I used to do that in high school.
Jane: That’s what I had trouble with. Personally, if I were back teaching again, I would not have them use their calculators. But, the difference is though. If someone is not a good math student, and they could answer the concepts, then that’s one thing. If the mathematical parts where they have to create the numbers, and they don’t have skills there. It’s really hard to know. You almost need to do two types of tests. You need to do one where they take a test, and you need to do one where you do it on an individual basis if you want to really know how they understand accounting. Because you get away from their mathematical skill to their concepts. There could be two different situations there.
Paige: Right, so that actually is a good segue. So I guess my first kind of inference on that, so you would say that people have a dependency on like technology and calculators?
Jane: Yes. Too much.
Paige Too much?
Jane: Too much of a dependency. I think that’s why a lot of kids they just don’t… And I think now, and I don’t how long they let them use them now, some places let them use them very young. And I have a problem with that, because they don’t develop their mathematical skills. And then they get to be adults and they can’t (snapping noise). Like this. And if they’re in business you got to (snapping noises). You can’t, you don’t have time to, “Well wait, I’ve got to put this down a piece of paper and do this.” You do that to check yourself. But that can’t be, I think it ruins our math skills. I just think it’s terrible.
Paige: I agree. So my second, inference, I guess on what you said first was you mentioned something about how you should test students differently. So you think people who have a natural ability for math skills, they should be tested differently than those who don’t. And they should be tested on their concepts.
Jane: So you have to create a test that does both. Because you can’t say, “Well I’m going to give you this test because it’s a little easier for you to understand than this other person.” You can’t do that. So you have to have two types of tests.
Paige: So you think that all students learn differently then?
Jane: Yeah I do.
Paige: Could you develop on that a little more?
Jane: Well I think, first of all it has to be whether or not they’re studious, and has to do with their math background again. Okay, and how they, some kids can conceptually think about ahead if you’re having them look at some numbers in a budget, and thinking about creating a budget. Some people can conceptually create that and do it easily in their minds, because they departmentalize and all this and add it up. Some can’t do that. Some just don’t have that ability. Somewhere along the line, your math has to be… that’s why they had to have Algebra and regular math skills. You have to have Algebra too, because you use it sometimes in Accounting. Even though you don’t write it down as Algebra, you think about this, “Well if I’ve got this many things to sell, then I’m going to charge this.” You can do it, and conceptually use it. It’s really hard. And some people have a deficiency because of their math skill, and then some can do math skills, but they don’t have the concept of what they’re looking at in the whole picture. You have to kind of teach that way. And that’s why you have different levels of teaching in accounting. You have them teach this one, this one and then this one. And since, I haven’t taught there in a while. I don’t know how the first book is that they use. I would have to go back and look at that. I did not like managerial accounting at all. I didn’t like to teach it. When I had to do it I was like, (scoffing noise). Well I mean I had to do it some, nobody wanted to teach it because it was for non-majors you see. The people that had the PhD’s and this that were going to teach the upper levels, and they have to go up all the way to the other. And they teach management in it to, management has to be apart of it. But it’s different from the first three courses. So, I think, but a lot of people don’t even like it, and it’s really hard to get them to want to use their minds. Now when I could take some students, if they would let me, if they would be willing if they were worried about their grade or something, they would come in. And I would sit and talk to them, and just talk about it, and it was so much easier for them if they would do that than if they would never come in. Some will want to come in and talk to you, and some don’t. So I loved it when they wanted to come in and talk to me.
Paige. Awesome. So to kind of go back on that all students test differently, and you think that happens at the college level.
Jane: I think that happens at every level.
Paige: That’s what I was about to say. Do you think it happens at every level? Do you think it would be harder for younger students, say elementary or middle school level, to do those standardized tests that focus on one type of students.
Jane: Yeah I do.
Paige; You do?
Jane: I kind of do. I haven’t done it for a long time, but I can see. But there is no good way to make a good test. It’s really hard. Because I try to do the tests to figure out if they knew the concepts, but…
Paige: Did you write your own tests?
Jane: Yeah. Now sometimes, if they were just normal transactions, no I took those from stuff. But sometimes I would always come up with something that I created myself based upon something that I emphasized. If I emphasized something that they didn’t work a problem in the book on or whatever or we talked about more or whatever, and I think it was you had to kind of base it on which class it was. Whether it was first class, second class or managerial class. So, that’s where there’s a difference there too, the level of the class. People had to take it at the time, the first two. Because one of them was regular financial accounting and one of them was managerial accounting where you applied it and problem solving, ok. Then if they were accounting major, then they took more of the other. And the others didn’t take it anymore. But when you get to tax accounting, see I didn’t teach tax accounting, but I loved to take the course. Because you got to use the thinking process of what you were doing with those numbers and when you got to apply it. And I think they make majors take that because that is a big thing. Because a lot of them are going to go out and be accountants. So, and it depends on, if you have the level of the students that were non-accounting majors. It’s not that they were any less capable of it, it’s just that they chose to be something else instead of being an accountant. And when you taught them, you had to keep their interest, ok because some of them didn’t want to do accounting and didn’t care, but you had to throw in the managerial part of it, and the business part. I did not like to teach that course. I wanted the numbers and the basics, that’s why I loved to teach the first two courses. I taught the managerial because that was for non-majors. Another reason why I didn’t like to teach that as much because they weren’t as interested in it, and you had to get them interested. Some of them ended up liking it enough to that they said, “Hey you know, i just want to go into an accounting major, because I can see where you can use this.” I loved to teach it. And in high school I taught bookkeeping.
Paige: OK, I have another question to ask you. So, what are your opinions on standardized testing at the middle school and high school level, and even elementary. So you’ve seen like students struggle with, different types of students who learn differently, you’ve seen them struggle with having a formulated test. And they’re at the college level…
Jane: I think it depends on how you use that test, the results of it. I think it scares many kids. They are petrified, because they know they are not conceptually, if they are not a good math student, and they’re taking this, they know that. I mean they just know it. And then there are those who will go beyond because they don’t have as much skill, but they want to use it, and they want to go further. So then you’ve got that category, and then you’ve got those who can just zip through it. So you’ve got three categories that take them.
Paige: I’m going to go back to that first category you said, so you think some kids get nervous and get anxious about taking a test because they’re so worried.
Jane: I had some that I just had to work with to get them from panicking. I mean they just did. And some of them did well with the test, and some of them, I could tell, it made them not perform as well because they just got too nervous. You kind of had to create your test so you have some questions and answers from both people taking it. Now when they got to managerial, they are going to go and go into business and not accounting, but they had to know how to read the accounting statements. So you got the people who were going to be management and marketing, so some of them. I did not like to teach that class. Because I did not like management and marketing. It just wasn’t what I – I just wanted the numbers and how they all fit together and make your… you know what I mean. I did not want to make the decisions with what the numbers said. So that was hard. After I taught it a couple times, it was fine. And I realized, I learned the first couple of semesters I taught that, how these kids thought that were not accounting majors, and after that I was better at it. But the first couple of semesters I taught it I was like “mmmm”. Because I wanted to get them to, but I didn’t feel like I had the management background to do it, but I learned the management background to do it. I had to do what I had to do for that, and that was the hardest part for me.
Paige: I’ll come back to the managerial thing in a second. But before I do that, I want to ask you one more question about standardized testing. So, you mentioned earlier, you said that you think standardized testing is okay depending on what you do with the scores. Could you expand more on that.
Jane: Like I would not think standardized testing would be for the grade in the class. No, I wouldn’t like standardized testing. Because, you need to test them on what you taught them and what you gave them. And if instinctively if there is something you don’t like as much as about it, then you’re not going to ask a questions on those things that maybe they should’ve been asked or whatever. So that’s really hard, but that’s a risk factor you make in your tests.
Paige: So you think it puts students against each other. So think about it on a state scale, now kids have to take state-wide tests, and it’s the same test that they give every student in Kentucky. So, every kid has to take the same test regardless of what kind of learner they are. So, do you think it stresses kids out because they want to be qualified?
Jane: Yes and no. Because I think there are some students that are just going to grasp it and soup it up anyway, and to them it’s just nothing and they just do it. And there are those that have to think a little harder, and then they have to apply, and a lot of those students end up being wonderful accounting majors. But, they had to grab that, you had to get them to the point where they could grab it and see the big picture. But now non-majors, to get them to the point where they saw it, and put it toward their management skills and marketing skills is a different thing, then going on and being an accounting and writing it down just to get their numbers to work. It’s hard.
Paige: It is hard. It’s a very difficult question that I think a lot of people are having a hard time answering which is what we are trying to do in this class. It is a very hard question.
Jane: But it’s something you think about, because I worry about the kids where I couldn’t get too far above them, and leave out the ones on the bottom. So I probably worked harder at getting right in the middle, and trying to get some of the ones who didn’t understand it more than the ones that did, because they were grasping at it. And I probably didn’t help them as much as I should have because – now most of them could do it anyway. Now if they had good math skills they could do it. But if they didn’t care, if they didn’t look at it that way, even with good math skills they still had to.
Paige. And you’ve mentioned a couple times now, that you were learning as you went too, especially with the managerial accounting class.
Jane: I didn’t do the management part. I didn’t take a bunch of advanced classes, I took normal management classes and marketing classes that was not my cup of tea. When you are trying to apply it to that, that got harder for me. That’s not what I wanted them to do, I wanted them to get those numbers and get them down there, and have them equal, and look at the picture of it, and be able to say what they had done. But that was what I wanted to do. But I did it. I learned it. And once I did managerial I was okay, but I didn’t feel good because I felt like I didn’t have enough management background.
Paige: But to translate that into maybe a high school or middle school level – do you think that, since you do have so much experience teaching, do you think that teachers sometimes will teach just so their students will pass a test. Just so their teaching looks good to their bosses, and their scores look good.
Jane: I don’t think so, but then again I think it’s the person. Some people love to teach, and they are good at teaching. That’s how I always felt like. I felt like I could teach well because I wanted to teach well. I may not have had the knowledge of the people down to the nitty-gritty of the advance accounting classes I hadn’t had with a PhD, but I could get those kids through that part.
Paige: Because you had a passion for teaching too.
Jane: But some students don’t look at things how you apply them. And they had trouble with accounting. They just couldn’t go forward. I had some that could memorize, and I mean they could take a test, and make it sound good. But if you put it in a situation then they couldn’t do it. And that’s why you’ve got to have both.
Paige: So you think that all students learn differently, and teachers need to learn how to I guess adapt to all different learning types.
Jane: And what you have to do is encourage those who can’t get it, you have got to see it. Because some don’t want to act like they – to some if you’re approach them that you want to help them. They won’t like it because it makes them feel like “Well, I’m.. you know.” I didn’t embarrass anybody I waited for them to come to me. But I would write a note on a test or something, “Let’s talk about this sometime,” or something. You know what I mean. So I wouldn’t make a big deal about it, now if they wanted to show someone that I wrote that note on there, then that’s fine. But then we took up our tests and took them back, we kept them. We did not give them, because there is only so many ways you can ask a number of questions. And two, it didn’t help them, so.
Paige: Okay so you mention testing can be, you have mentioned before that students sometimes get nervous about testing. There are certain students who just are bad test-takers and they get anxious and they get stressed out, sometimes for no reason maybe, but it’s just who they are as a person. Do you think that students passing tests also puts an extra pressure on teachers, and that teachers get stressed out over that?
Jane: What do you mean passing?
Paige: So like a teacher’s job is to make sure their students learn. And that is evaluated by if their students pass their tests. So, do you think that teachers get stressed out that their students won’t pass their tests? Because if they don’t, that is a reflection on the teacher. On being “bad” at their job.
Jane: it could be.
Paige: You think so?
Jane: And I think again, you have to know the personality.
Paige: Of the teacher or of the student?
Jane: Both. Because I think the students – some have the ability and don’t want to use it. And they don’t care. Some just to get along and get their degree, and some are bright enough that they could do it, and you worry about not stimulating them to take them beyond that. So you have all of those, and you have to get them to come to your class and come to your office so you can learn them. You need to encourage them to come so if they have a problem, and then you can see who needs what, and it helps you to help them more. That’s what I like to do is talk to them on an individual basis, and help them, and get them going, and they would be – you know.
Paige: So do you think there is more stress on teachers today than when you started teaching?
Jane: I don’t know because it’s been a while since I taught. Probably in some ways yes.
Paige: Why do you think there would be? What kind of stressors are there for teachers these days compared to when you first started teaching.
Jane: Well, I think the expectations are great. I think parents, and educators themselves, in certain levels, have this thing about – again it’s measuring it. Did we measure them correctly. So there’s that stress level like if I make out a test, was I fair to them in the way I asked the questions. You could change one little word and throw it. Sometimes you wanted to do it purposefully, so to see if they could catch it. Whether or not you used standardized test. I used to love those when I first started. Particularly because I wanted to have a basic form but then I would change things. And again, I would change them – we did departmental tests in the first two classes. We got together. One of us would make out our tests, and we would put them together, and we would pick out what we felt was the best thing to do. Or my assignment was to do the first one, someone else do the second one, but when you did you wanted to make sure that you covered that. So we worked with each other to make sure that we covered the test. I mean we covered what we taught, we were supposed to. So that’s why I don’t like standardized tests, because somebody has made out those questions. But you may not have emphasized that in your class. So I always liked to make my own tests. But we got together and made our own tests, and we maybe used the same test, but we worked on them together. And you know put them together, and made sure we covered. And if there was one in there that I didn’t cover, I just made sure not to count it. I told them, I’m not going to count that one because I didn’t do that. So that was not – because some people wanted to do different things. And that’s their creativity that’s good. Some people wanted to teach it more toward a management concept. I did not, I wanted to teach it toward – it worked and it helped you make a decision, which is kind of management, but at the same time it was mathematically correct. The math is what I focused on. And you know a lot of people – I don’t know it’s been a while since I’ve taught. – I was surprised at – But then I had some students that didn’t do well on the first test, but then they realized that they weren’t using their math skills, and the atmosphere you create for them. I didn’t walk up and down the aisles, at least I don’t remember doing it, and putting the stress on them, but now see I think calculators have ruined it for us. Because you don’t know if they could do this mathematically because they are dependent on those calculators. I think that’s been the worst thing – I understand it gets you through the test faster, and it’s efficient. But at the same time, if they depend upon that, and don’t get the concepts. Then they get to the end of the course, and haven’t learned anything. Almost on an individual basis too. You have some students that wanted to do it, students that didn’t want to be there, and students that wanted to do well, students that didn’t have the ability but they worked above their ability. Now that’s a student that I loved to work with. Because you knew they were pushing themselves, and they used all they could to get it, and when they did they were like yes. And I think they learned more than anybody in the course. Ones that could just do it.
Paige: I have one more question for you. Okay so this is a hypothetical scenario. So let’s say a student does overall well in school. This is maybe middle school level. So you have 8 or so classes, and they do well in school, like a B or A student. But they get the standardized test, that every student has to take, and they just bomb it. Do you think that student is misjudged? So that student is going to be labeled as a maybe a lesser student, because they did not do well on these standardized test, however; they do have lots of knowledge that they do well on school.
Jane: I think what happens is, you have to take that student and watch them. You have to observe how they do on the next test. And you will learn whether or not they are lacking in which skill, and then you help them. You try to help them.
Paige: But do you think they are misjudged, so like say I was in middle school. And I got A’s all throughout middle school. But I have to take ISTEP, which is the Indiana state standardized test. And I’m not a good test-taker, so I didn’t do well on it. However, I got A’s and B’s in all my classes. But the state has labeled me as a poor student. So do you think I’m misjudged because I have other skills elsewhere.
Jane: I don’t think people do that.
Paige; But they do do that though.
Jane: It just depends upon the teacher too. And now so much is testing stuff. I don’t – and this is awful to say.
Paige: It’s okay just say it.
Jane: I don’t know because I don’t teach now so I don’t know if we do standardized tests, and I know in accounting, that it is still different than a reading class. But now managerial accounting I did not like because it was conceptually taught toward the management part and all that, and I couldn’t get them to use their mathematical skills, and I didn’t know whether it was their management skills or their mathematical skills. I did not like to teach that class. But I think part of it was because I didn’t like it.
Paige: Back to the question, do you think I would be misjudged by the state?
Jane: I do. I don’t think you can make that test be the only thing – I think you need to be given a chance to perform in other ways. Because some people just can’t take a test. I mean I had kids that – I thought a girl was going to pass out. And I was kind of that way when I was taking them. I was like (gasping noise) and I think probably around my junior year I got to where I could do it.