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In small communities like Calloway County, understanding test scores and student reactions can give administrators an in-depth look at whether the effect of this testing is beneficial or harmful.
Marion Hale is an administrative assistant at Murray State University. She has been a full-time employee at Murray State since 1995 and has worked all over campus in various jobs during this time.
Roots run deep for Hale. She is a Calloway County native, having been born and raised in western Kentucky just like her parents before her. She is married with no children; yet, she has acted like a mother to numerous students and children at-need in the community for the past 25 years. During this time, Hale has been in contact with students of all capabilities, studying the effects of schooling on their everyday lives.
As a student herself, Hale experienced an array of testing, but none like the newly introduced standardized testing of the early 1990s. Hale recalls her school life in the 1960s was much different than that of today’s classrooms.
“The grade schools in Calloway County had six elementary centers within the county,” Hale said. “I attended the second largest which was Kirskey Elementary for grades 1-8, the main focus of this school was fundamental education and every class had a certain level, every grade had a certain level of English, math and reading. As you got older you had more social studies, civics and stuff like that, but it was all very general education at that time”
The jump from grade school to high school was a challenge for not only Hale but many of her classmates. Learning to navigate a new school and new classmates posed a threat to Hale’s learning.
“It was a huge leap,” Hale said. “You go from a school where you know everyone to where you’re mixed in with kids from all the other schools in the county and you go from being the oldest to being the youngest. At that time, you were given a schedule depending on what you wanted to do. My schedule, last period was always band, so everything had to fit around that and we had to just basically make our own way at that time.”
Testing during the late 1960s and into the early 1970s was dismal and almost nonexistent aside from routine subject testing. In an attempt to gauge student skills, aptitude tests were the norm and Hale realized her abilities through this testing.
“I did very well in mechanical areas because my father wanted to make sure I could work on my own car if I needed to," she said. "I was offered a chance to go to the military because I was so good with mechanics, my hands and math and logic. But my dad assured me I was not going into the military, that was not a place for me, but it would have paid for school. But there were several aptitude tests, not only with that but in other areas.”
While Hale was a solid student, testing did not help contribute to all her needs while in school.
“I didn’t learn to study in school,” Hale said. “When I got to college, I was a bit unprepared my first semester in that I had classes, a lot of classes because I started in music, but I didn’t know how to study, really study. That caused some hardship my full freshman year, it was a little hard.”
Subjects such as math, reading and arithmetic help further students for classroom work, but extracurricular classes proved to be most advantageous for students like Hale.
“I was involved in all kinds of music programs,” Hale said. “I think it’s a good foundation for anyone who has the aptitude for it. It not only teaches you timing and music skills, but you have to learn to work together with your ensemble. I was in the percussion, so we had to work together but we also had to learn to work with the rest of the band. That’s part of learning, working as a group so you have those social skills developed when you get to another institution or even just further in life.”
As a caretaker, Hale mentored and took care of students from all backgrounds. She observed and studied the effects of school and testing on her students and took an interest in what did and did not work for them.
“When I look at some of the students today, I’m concerned about the standardized testing because some groups, some teachers, some school systems teach to the test so that the students score well. But if you don’t have the fundamentals of learning, the basics of English, reading and math, those subjects, then you’re at a disadvantage later. You come into college with a limited set of skills unless you branched out with something other than basic classes.”
The advantages of standardized testing can be debated on each side, some students struggle with test taking of any kind, while those who thrive improve results by encouraging the use of testing. Hale sees the reasoning behind the use of standardized testing but is skeptical of its importance and accuracy in determining student achievement.
“I don’t think it helps so much,” Hale said. “It will expose those students that need help because their answers will reflect their level of learning, but some students need extra help in their learning skills and study skills.”
Hale believes it is the teacher’s responsibility to use test findings to structure their classroom rubric.
“I hope the teachers use the tests and frame their analysis on that," she said. "There are a lot of kids that don’t test well, and they need help with their test taking skills and sometimes that won’t show up on the standardized test but not in a way that is reflected correctly. It may show that they’re not trained as well or don’t have enough skills, but it won’t show if they just have a tough time taking tests or if they’re having some sort of anxiety with test taking.”
The relevance of test results varies from area to area as populations fluctuate and student readiness changes. For an area like Calloway county, Hale sees the promise in using standardized testing.
“If you have students who are very good at test taking, a lot of students are, it looks as though, from the information I’ve read, that the test scores for the students in most cases in Calloway County have increased and they are improving," she said. "Maybe they are getting more comfortable with taking standardized tests compared to tests where you have to write out an answer physically.”
School life has gone through a tumultuous change in the last 40 years. Along with testing, societal norms and technology have paved the way for numerous chances for improved learning in the classroom.
With these changes, Hale believes there are many advantages to new technology, but there are cautions to be aware of with overuse.
“I’m happy that we have a chance to take technology and use it for advantages with the students,” Hale said. “In some ways we have overused it, we have almost in some ways done away with classroom contact, group work and getting to know the people we are dealing with because everything is online and that’s how you’re contacting the world. Eventually you actually have to meet people face-to-face.”
Going forward, Hale hopes for more of a group effort between administrators and higher officials regarding school functionality.
“I would like to see our educators sit down more with the administrators in Frankfort and other areas who are setting standards,” Hale said. “I would like to see them sit down with teachers more, talk more one-on-one about what’s happening in the classroom, what’s happening with testing procedures and what’s happening in general with the students.”
Standardized testing has had its stronghold on education for close to three decades now. Looking ahead, it will be important to see what effect this testing has and will have in the years to follow.
Original Format
Part 2 of the audio file to this oral history interview can be accessed at this link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AUVwou9FxmwUXGZA67vGq3YeQeflLM1O/view?usp=sharing
Transcript:
KJ: This is Keith Jaco, the date is Friday, November 2, 2018, and the topic is public education and the use of standardized testing since the 1990’s. My interviewee is Marion Hale, is that correct?
Marion: Yes
KJ: Do I have your permission to conduct this interview?
MH: Yes
KJ: Awesome. We’ll start with some background. First off, where are you from and just give me a little background on your family, your parents and any children if you have any.
MH: I am from Murray, I attended Calloway County High School from 1970-1974, my parents were born in the midst of the depression era, my mom in Tennessee and my dad in Calloway County in a place called Brandon’s Mill. They each completed sixth grade education was about all they had at that time. My brother and I attended college at Murray State, he got his master’s degree and I’m still working on an advertising degree which I hope to take a class in the spring. My husband Barry and I do not have children, but we have helped raise nieces, nephews, student workers, kids from church, whatever, whoever it doesn’t matter they seemed to end up around us so hopefully we’ve had some influence on all them.
KJ: Little bit of background, what was education like as a student in grade school in Calloway county going into high school? I know its been a while but what would you say you took away from those times?
MH: Grade school in Calloway County when I was that age, there were six elementary centers within the county. I attended the second largest which was Kirskey Elementary for grades 1-8, the main focus of this school was fundamental education and every class had a certain level, every grade I guess you had a certain level of English and Math and Reading. As you got older you had more social studies, civics and stuff like that, but it was all very general education at that time. Each class period was about an hour/hour and a half and then we would have a break but the same thing and then o lunch and then back at it in the afternoons. I went to school every day on the big yellow bus all through elementary, so it was typical, rural Kentucky education at that time.
KJ: Teacher wise, did you have multiple teachers for different classes or did you mainly stay in the same room with the same teacher all day?
MH: In grades 1-7 we stayed in the same room with the same teacher all day long, in eighth grade we had two teachers even though we stayed in the same classroom the teachers swapped depending on the subjects they were teaching. So I think that helped prepare us for secondary education.
KJ: Would you say that there was any kind of emphasis on moving on from eighth grade to high school? Was the leap huge or did you think it all melted altogether.
MH: No it was a huge leap. Because you go from a school where you know everyone to where you’re mixed in with kids from all the other schools in the county and you go from being the oldest to being the youngest. You’re kind of just thrown in with a bunch of people and really have to learn your way around. At that time, you were given a schedule depending on what you wanted to do. My schedule, last period was always band, so everything had to fit around that and we had to just basically make our own way at that time.
KJ: What was testing like as a student? Was there anything besides a normal routine test for subject? Did you have any aptitude test to help tailor you to what you wanted to do when you got older?
MH; Yes. I did very well in mechanical areas because my father wanted to make sure I could work on my own car if I needed to and was offered a chance to go to the military because I was so good with mechanics and my hands and math and logic. But my dad assured me I was not going into the military, that was not a place for me, but it would have paid for school. But there were several aptitude tests, not only with that but in other areas. I’m sure we did some personality tests in certain classes for other teacher’s research.
KJ: Do you feel like the testing you did do helped you as you got older? Do you think you had a fair amount of education to help you achieve the goals you were setting for yourself as you got older?
MH: In some ways, school was relatively easy for me, I could memorize and spout back any information. I did learn a lot of basic things, things I still use today, you know, basic English and math and social skills and so forth. But I didn’t learn to study in school so when I got to college, I was a bit unprepared my first semester in that I had classes, a lot of classes because I started in music, but I didn’t know how to study, really study. That caused some hardship my full freshman year, it was a little hard.
KJ: You said you had band, music and other extracurricular classes instead of just standard math and reading, was there a huge emphasis on getting students involved in that and do you think that being able to branch and out do things like that instead of classwork helped you?
MH: Oh yes definitely. The band and the choir both, I was involved in all kinds of music programs. I think it’s a good foundation for anyone who has the aptitude for it. It not only teaches you timing and music skills but you have to learn to work together with your ensemble, I was in the percussion so we had to work together but we also had to learn to work with the rest of the band That’s part of learning, working as a group so you have those social skills developed when you get to another institution or even just further in life.
KJ: I know you said you didn’t have any children of your own, but you’ve taken care of, you’ve been around students that were in school post-1990, did you notice any difference from when you went to school and when they went to school? Do you think this change in testing was more helpful or harmful?
MH: When I look at some of the students today, I’m concerned about the standardized testing because some groups, some teachers, some school systems teach to the test so that the students score well. But if you don’t have the basic fundamentals of learning, the basics of English, reading and math, those subjects, then you’re at a disadvantage later on. You come into college with a limited set of skills unless you branched out with something other than basic classes.
KJ: Would you say that standardized testing pre-1990 into post 1990 did help the kids that got held back, the kids that need more help compared to what you experienced when you were in school?
MH: I don’t think it helps so much, it will expose those students that need help because their answers will reflect their level of learning, but some student need extra help in their learning skills and study skills. I hope the teachers use the tests and frame their analysis on that, there are a lot of kids that don’t test well, and they need help with their test taking skills and sometimes that won’t show up on the standardized test but not in a way that is reflected correctly. It may show that they’re not trained as well or don’t have enough skills, but it won’t show if they just have a tough time taking tests or if they’re having some sort of anxiety with test taking.
KJ: For a smaller school area like Calloway County, would you say standardized testing is better in a rural area like this, or do you think it only helps a bigger school where the numbers are bigger so you’re able to tell percentages and interpret things better?
MH: In some ways probably yes, because if you have students who are very good at test taking, a lot of students are, it looks as though, from the information I’ve read, that the test scores for the students in most cases in Calloway County have increased and they are improving. Maybe they are getting more comfortable with taking standardized tests compared to tests where you have to write out an answer physically. I think as the testing progresses, as we evaluate the testing and the answers that are given, hopefully the school systems, the state board of education will realize some of the good and bad, I’m sure they do now but hopefully they realize the tests from a smaller school system are not going to be the same as one, say for the Louisville-Metro, area where you have so many people. The bigger numbers are going to skew any kind of curve that you have, but I’m hoping that maybe someday we’ll get things on a more level track across the state.
KJ: Now a little about your time here at Murray State. First off, we’ll ask what year did you get here?
MH: As far as working on campus, I came to campus in 1995. I will have 23 years next week working on the Murray State campus. I came as a student in the summer of ’74 which was a long, long time ago and I am glad I’m here to admit that. Campus has definitely changed since that time, but a lot of things are still the same.
KJ: So, comparing yourself as a student to the students you have met and worked with 1995 and on, do you think those students are any different than you were? Especially when it comes to testing, societal norms and things they’ve experienced over the years. Do you think the world has changed a lot since you were in school, to when they were in school and even when I was in school?
MH: Very much so, more of our testing during my time was true/false and multiple guess tests and you still get some of those but my first big standardized testing think came when I took an accounting test here on campus, and that was my sophomore or junior year and everybody had the same test, especially at finals. It didn’t take into consideration the different teaching styles of each professor, but each professor was supposed to make sure everyone had the same information. And that’s, you know, one of the things about standardized testing not being fair in some ways, especially If you have different teachers giving out different information. But more and more tests across campus are standardized. I know that some folks in our department in Journalism and Mass Comm have used and still use standardized testing but not as many as there used to be because those professors have retired.
KJ: Do you think the use of standardized testing or even the overuse of standardized testing can be faulty in a way because of interpretation?
MH: Right, any of the information that I receive even if it’s the same words could be different than the way you receive it because there are so many factors, one is age, one is experience, you know, and then part of it is environment. Somebody may tell us both that the Dairy Queen is closed, I may know its closed until March 1st of the next year and you may totally not know that and react a different way. Another part of it is just, you know, messages have so many filters and we have to be aware of those and how those things are processed, how people process different messages.
KJ: As a follow up to talking about from when you were in school, the 90’s and when I was in school, do you think the education system has done a decent job of moving and changing with the world around us? Technology wise and testing wise.
MH: Yes and no. Some love the technology we have learned over years. My first experience at a computer was when I was working at Fisher Price toys when we were actually trained on computers similar to what we have today, only they had large discs instead of a little bitty drive we can plug in. Things change and its wonderful they have but I like technology, I like the way we can use technology, sometimes I think we over use it. I’m happy that we have a chance to take technology and use it for advantages with the students, you know, its so much easier than handing everything out by hand and giving everybody individual pieces of paper when we can both pull something up on the screen and read it. In some ways we have overused it, we have almost in some ways done away with, in some areas, classroom contact, group work and getting to know the people we are dealing with because everything is online and that’s how you’re contacting the world. Eventually you actually have to meet people face-to-face
KJ: If you could go back and, you know, kind of have a say in how things were ran, would you go ahead with how standardized testing has effected and changed and done all that it has for elementary and high school or would you say the way you had it was good enough, maybe some minor changes.
MH: I think a little bit of both. I think we need to have a little bit of testing done where somebody can sit down and prepare a thought or write a sentence, answer a question, you know, manually, I definitely like the fact that standardized testing has helped us move beyond that in that it’s allowed us to help people who have a problem composing those thoughts and putting them on paper or if they have a disability, you know, we have ways of helping those through the technology, computers that we have today. That’s why I like a little bit of both, you know, because of I knew students who had a hard time communicating thoughts and outing words on the paper, making sense of what they were writing down because of a disability. We see that now, we didn’t see that then, we just thought they were lazy back in the day, you know. And it wasn’t that, they were just having a hard time understanding. Having computer technology to assist education and testing that helps assist, I think if we do it in the right manner and use a combination of both, it’ll be a good thing for all of our students.
KJ: Lastly here, anything else you’d like to comment on regarding education, public education and testing in Kentucky?
MH: I would like to see our educators sit down more with the administrators in Frankfort and other areas who are setting standards. I would like to see them sit down with teachers more, talk more one-on-one about what’s happening in the classroom, what’s happening with testing procedures and what’s happening in general with the students. Instead of just making broad spectrum decisions, lets look at, you know, different areas, lets look at how we can help students form a sentence, what we have to do to help them form a sentence and write something down. Teach them basic skills, not only just reading, writing and arithmetic but maybe how to change a flat tire, how to balance a checkbook, even how to boil water. There’s a lot of people who can’t even do that but, you know, life skills are important, learning is important whether its in a classroom or any other situation where you’re maybe in the creek bed picking out minnows to talk about them scientifically. All of that learning is important and we need to take it all into consideration and not pass up the opportunity to train the students, train the teachers to train the students and look forward to what we can do to bring our students up to the standards of maybe other areas in the country, especially in the world because there are a lot students around the globe who are more technologically advanced than our students in this state or throughout the United States. We need to take advantage of the opportunities we have to deal with students, to work with them one-on-one and to also generate a love of learning, a lifelong love of learning. Not just something we put on paper but something that comes from the heart that makes them desire to learn continually throughout life.
KJ: Alright I think that was all I need, I really appreciate it.
MH: You’re welcome.